Point missed by DRF’s Marcus Hersh looms large

15 thoughts on “Point missed by DRF’s Marcus Hersh looms large”

  1. Now wait a minute, the reason this race doesn’t have black type is because the folks putting on the race haven’t asked for it? Have you contacted them for why? Sounds like you’re the one missing the point Sid.

  2. Janine, part of my OVERALL point is that IRPAC, the body in charge of according races black type, should make the decisions. The people who put on the $50,000 restricted stakes race (for horses consigned to a specific sale) in Illinois DID NOT ask for black type — they were given it as a matter of policy by IRPAC, which is chaired by the Jockey Club’s Carl Hamilton. If you are really interested in the issue, I suggest that you read all my posts on it.

  3. “Black type” means a race meets certain rules. Quality of competition is only one rule, not the overriding one.

    Is it that they change the horse’s names, or are there more issues? Which name do these horses use in Dubai?

  4. look, the whole idea of black type is to guide breeders by distinguishing levels of quality. G1, G2, G3, Listed, Restricted.

    Black type is literally what “grades” a pedigree, and it’s in the best interests of anyone associated with the breeding of thoroughbreds to have a reliable “scale.”

    For instance, Derek’s pick in the Illinois stakes race restricted to horses that went through a certain sale — Where’s Winston — will get black type in the pedigree of his dam for that race.

    The dams of Muller and Paris Perfect do not get credit on their catalogue pages for their sons’ winning and placing in the King’s Cup.

    For the sake of breeders, who do you think is a better horse? Where’s Winston or Paris Perfect?

    IRPAC needs to rate races fairly and independently.

  5. You’re still arguing quality of competition as the only criterion for grading. It isn’t. The rules of the races themselves must be consistent for the grading to mean anything.

    If these horses are already proven stakes winners, they already have black type so lack of it from this particular race doesn’t hurt their pedigrees.

  6. Janine,

    Now you are making an assumption.

    Eastern Anthem, who became a grade one winner in Dubai on Saturday, had never previously won a black-type event.

    So it would be perfectly possible for a late-developing horse (like Eastern Anthem) to beat a strong field in the King’s Cup, perhaps defeating horses like Paris Perfect and Muller, injure himself and not run again, and not to receive black-type.

  7. Janine, where do you get your information for criteria for Graded races? And why do you think quality of competition is not the main factor in grading races? I suggest that you read “International Cataloguing Standards.”

    And stakes winners, by the way, do not necessarily equal black type winners. There are “stakes rules” and “black type” rules.

  8. Janine you got to guys know what they talking about with Alan Porter and Sid. I see Cowls is now nthe BlogStalker. I luv it. Hes a nasty peice of work too.

  9. In 2008, for a stakes race in the United States or Canada to receive black type in SITA catalogues, it must:

    • have a minimum purse value of $50,000 distributed on the day of the race

    • close at least 72 hours in advance of its running, have a fee paid by the owner of the entrant, and have a total purse value distributed on the day of the race equal to or greater than the established minimum

    • have all entries be eligible for the purse monies used to determine the minimum purse value for black type or listed status

    • not have restrictions other than state-bred, non-winners of a sweepstakes, sales graduates or stallions’ progeny

    • not contain a preference clause(s) based on criteria unrelated to the quality of the horse if such preference clause(s) could possibly exclude any horse(s) of superior quality from competing

    Other countries have similar rules.

    What are the conditions for the King’s Cup?

  10. Janine:

    The conditions you list apply to North American black-type races only. In the international arena, the only designations for black type are G1, G2, G3, and Listed.

    There are NO restricted black type European races (except for the Prix Yacowlef), and there are NO black-type races based on $50,000 purse money, that you mentioned above for US and Canada.

    Please do not try and compare apples with oranges.

  11. I asked around some more, and the reason this race does not qualify for international black type is because Saudi Arabia has not signed on to the rules for international black type.

    Until they agree to the same rules as everyone else, the race cannot be given international black type. It’s a Saudi G1, it has Saudi black type, but it is not accepted internationally because it does not follow the international rules.

  12. hi janine:

    i appreciate your interest in this issue. yes, i know that it is a Saudi G1 race. All of the best Saudi races are listed in “International Cataloguing Standards,” under the Part III countries. Saudi, which is a Part III country, does not get international black type.

    Who was your source for this information? Was it a member of IRPAC?

    Bill Nader, vice chairman of IRPAC, has expressed support for helping in upgrading this race as a “one-off.”

    Only Part I and II countries get black type. Part II countries’ Group races are only given Listed race status internationally. However, exceptions are sometimes made to elevate a lower Part country race. Singapore, for example is a Part II country that would not ordinarily get international Group race recognition. However, the Singapore Airlines International Cup is an exception and is the only race in Singapore that actually has been accorded international Group 1 status. Why? Because of the quality of the horses that have competed in the race over the years.

  13. this was posted by Pat Cummings — one of only three American journalists at the Dubai World Cup — on his website:

    “Saudi racing should be proud after Paris Perfect and Muller and third and fourth in the Dubai World Cup, not to mention winning with Big City Man. The difference, however, is that Paris Perfect and Muller spent considerable time in the Kingdom and had plenty of races between them at Janadriah Race Course in Riyadh. Saudi-based trainers Jerry Barton and Neil Bruss were quick to confirm that the surface there is one of the best in the world with almost no kickback and when it comes down to it, expect the King’s Cup to start earning some greater international respect.”

    see Pat’s reviews here: http://dubairacenight.com/reviewing-dubai-world-cup-2009-part-1/

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